E5 S1| Julia LeFrancois on Ableism, Crip Kinship, Body Neutrality, Disability Justice and Living With Fibromyalgia and Rheumatoid Arthritis

In today’s episode of the Sick and Seeking Podcast, I sit down with storyteller and scholar Julia LeFrancois to discuss her journey living with fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis. Julia is passionate about advocating for social and disability justice through her research and activism. Together, we explore vital topics like the societal invalidation of chronic illnesses, ableism, and the concepts of body neutrality and disability justice.

Join us for this insightful conversation that highlights the experiences of living with chronic illness and the importance of advocating for disability justice!

Conversation Highlights:

• Challenging Diagnoses: Julia shares the difficulties in diagnosing fibromyalgia, often dismissed by the medical community.
• Personalized Treatment: We discuss the journey of finding both conventional and holistic therapies to support self-care.
• Body's Brilliance: Julia expresses the frustration of a body that behaves independently of her efforts to manage health.
• Feelings and Self-Compassion: We explore the self-loathing, shame, and anger that may arise while trying to intuitively connect with one’s health.
• Body Neutrality vs. Body Positivity: We contrast these concepts and discuss their implications for self-acceptance.
• Disability Awareness vs. Justice: We delve into these distinctions and the importance of disrupting societal norms.
• Crip Kinship: Julia describes the empowering community of individuals with disabilities resisting unrealistic standards.
• Healing Through Storytelling: We discuss how articulating our journeys can be cathartic and healing.

Quotes:

"It's this rollercoaster that just doesn't end. Unless you have mental illness or chronic illness, it's hard to understand." - Julia

"We don’t experience things just in our bodies or just in our minds. We experience them simultaneously." - Julia

Connect with Julia:
Website 

Resources:
Shayda Kafai - Crip Kinship
Patty Berne - Disability Justice
Tricia Hersey - Nap Ministry

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Transcript

leslie_field (00:01.068)
Hello, Julia. How are you today?

julia_lefrancois (00:04.089)
Hi, I'm good, how are you doing?

leslie_field (00:06.498)
I'm doing well. I love that you're here. You're my sister. And how could I not be happy that you're here? So I have with me today who I consider my sister. This is Julia LaFrancois. And you know, I really worked on that. You're my sister. I needed to make sure I got that right. We have so much to talk about today. And I think the best way to start is that I was speaking with Julia and I loved how she

julia_lefrancois (00:20.579)
very proud of your pronunciation.

leslie_field (00:35.03)
identified herself and she's going to talk more about that. But she told me that she is a changemaker and a storyteller and I know that about you and I love that about you and that's why I wanted you to come on this podcast to speak about that as well as your healing journey and sort of God and goddess. I think we're going to go in a lot of directions. So tell me about yourself. Tell me about how you identify. Tell me all the things.

julia_lefrancois (00:54.819)
Yes.

julia_lefrancois (00:59.939)
Well, first it's so interesting because for as many years as we've known each other, it's...

funny that we've never had like this kind of conversation, but at the same time, like even in talking to you about it before this, we like, you already knew a lot of these things that I was talking about. So it's just interesting. So yeah, I think that I've come into a lot of my identities in my healing journey in the last few years and sort of like that collective.

like liberation that we've all had since, you know, COVID and, you know, George Floyd and everything like that. So I remember seeing actually Amanda Gorman called, she identifies on her website, she identifies as a change maker. And so I truly, truly connected with that. And I decided to kind of include that in who I am. But storyteller is something that like, I,

I feel like I'm a storyteller in my mind and my body, in my scholarship, in my profession, in my relationships. And I didn't realize that that was kind of like the core piece of who I was until I started doing more writing and more sort of like self-nurturing. And at first I kind of like shied away from even that term storyteller because it seemed

it didn't seem big enough. didn't seem like there was a valid sort of respect for that term storyteller. Like maybe folks will think of literal bedtime stories or TV shows or books or things like that. I don't know, I think there's power in storytelling and especially with like...

julia_lefrancois (02:55.171)
looking at, like recently looking into my indigenous ancestry, storytelling is very powerful and historical. So I proudly claim that as one of my identities now.

leslie_field (03:09.026)
Yes, it's so powerful. And like you said, we've never talked about these things, but I know you. Like, I see your passions. We were just talking about this before. We've known each other in other lives, but that's a whole other story. So that's another podcast we'll get into. So I know that you've lived with fibromyalgia and RA. And actually, I didn't realize that you had RA.

julia_lefrancois (03:17.241)
Right.

julia_lefrancois (03:24.175)
That's another podcast for another day.

julia_lefrancois (03:37.519)
So I don't have it throughout. I know a lot of people, their blood work is off the charts. Mine is kind of sporadically throughout my body, but it started with my hands. And I honestly think a lot of that had to do. So this was, mean, I'm 34. I think I was diagnosed when I was like 26 or 27.

which is young for RA, but I was a sign language interpreter, like you know that. And so I think that has a lot to do with that part of it, it kind of, it transferred into other parts of my body since then. But yeah, so those are the two sort of like physical, chronic, invisible illnesses.

leslie_field (04:26.648)
Yeah, especially fibromyalgia. I actually don't know a lot about it. but I, what I think I do know, which I could be incorrect, is that it's actually often hard to diagnose. And it seems to be one that mostly affects women. And is it auto, is it autoimmune as well?

julia_lefrancois (04:36.995)
Yes.

julia_lefrancois (04:41.069)
Yes. Yeah. So it's autoimmune and like what's frustrating about it is that there's even a lot of like it's invalidated in the like medical industrial complex sort of thing. So because there's not blood work. Like when I go get tested for RA, it's very clear.

that there's something in the report versus fibromyalgia. I remember, so that was when I was 17, or 18, I don't know. But I remember it's literally the doctor, like you know when they do the...

like when they hit your knee and they test your reflexes, similar to that. So they kind of like hit or touch different spots on your body. And I think if I remember correctly, if you get like 12 out of 17 or something like that, it's like a diagnosis. And I had all 17 points. And I remember the reason I even went to the doctor was because I asked like a friend and I was like, doesn't it suck that like, no matter what, like you wake up and like your body hurts.

And I was like young and they were like, what? And I was like, it's horrible. have to like wake up and like it takes forever to like move your body. And they were like, no. Yeah, yeah. Right.

leslie_field (05:58.985)
Yeah.

leslie_field (06:07.896)
Thank goodness. Thank goodness for that friend. Like they're going to give it to you straight. They're like, no,

julia_lefrancois (06:13.505)
Yeah, they were like, that's not normal. So yeah, it's not like a cut and dry sort of like black and white medical test that you can take, which means a lot of the research around it or...

leslie_field (06:16.6)
Mm-mm.

julia_lefrancois (06:33.333)
for healing around it, you treatment is also very gray.

leslie_field (06:38.386)
So is there anything specific that you do for five-moment myaggia? I really, I really don't even know the answer to that. What do you do?

julia_lefrancois (06:44.175)
Yeah. I mean, like, I remember when that was first happening. Like, I went to the doctor with my mom and my mom sort of was like, okay, like, this is what we need to do. And, you know, they prescribed, like, flexerol, like, muscle relaxers and things like that. And I was a dancer. I didn't like that. I just, I remember I took medication in the beginning and then I stopped.

on my own for many years and then, you know, accrued trauma, which I think made it worse, well, I know made it worse. And so then I started seeking more like holistic healing, you know, ways. And yeah.

leslie_field (07:34.04)
I didn't even know that. What... will you share with me some of the... I love how like I started with she's my sister and I don't know these things about you. Hi, what's your name? But I mean, if you want to share, I would love to hear them. I'm always curious about everyone's medical journey because we have to find our own way is really what it's about.

julia_lefrancois (07:39.087)
You're like, what's your name again?

julia_lefrancois (07:53.251)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't, I mean, there's nothing specific. like I, and a lot of it has to do with me just sort of being in denial or having like this really, and I'm sure a lot of folks can relate to this feeling of feeling betrayed by your body and, and, you know, all of that.

So I'm still in this form of like, don't really have a set regimen of what I do, regardless of which route I take. you know, I started looking more into meditation and yoga.

and food, but that said, honestly, that was really difficult for me and it's still really difficult for me because my relationship with my body, it's just so complex. has to do with my pain, mental illness, depression, anxiety.

sexual trauma and like an eating disorder. So when I sit there and try to think, okay, I'm going to be intuitive about what I put in my body about the food I eat or the way I move my body, it triggers so many...

self-loathing thoughts and shameful thoughts and more anger and more sadness and then boom more pain. So it's really interesting because when I try to heal and treat sort of my medical ailments I guess it's cyclical and it sort of goes through this cycle of like well it comes back to pain anyway.

julia_lefrancois (09:35.213)
Yeah, and even moving my body with yoga, it can be triggering because I don't look like everyone else doing yoga. I can't move my body the same as other folks who regularly do yoga and stuff like that.

leslie_field (09:46.424)
know exactly what you're talking about. And I suspect a lot of people who I like, I needed to take a deep breath on that one because you're speaking the same thoughts that I have in my brain that sometimes it feels like there's so many layers that no matter if I do the thing, I get the sleep, I think about what I'm eating. Did I drink all my water today? Did I try to de-stress? Like there's so many variables and factors and it can be coming from anywhere.

julia_lefrancois (10:09.135)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (10:16.418)
that it can just like, I don't know, knock all of that down. Like I did all, or I talked about this with Jessica, who's also going to be featured on another episode. Jessica is Julia's sister. We're all sisters. Jessica was saying the same thing. It really sucks because you can do all the things and this is from my brain. I call it right. Okay. I know I need to like get rid of this term of things being right and correct, but that's, I mean, and that's me and I get stuck there and I love it because

julia_lefrancois (10:26.531)
My sister.

julia_lefrancois (10:41.037)
doing it

leslie_field (10:46.25)
I hate it, but I love it, but I hate it. You know what I mean? That I'll do the checklist of all the things. I'm like, I did it right! And I still, like, I'm exhausted. I need to nap. And it really, sorry, it really fucking pisses me off, right?

julia_lefrancois (10:54.596)
Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (11:00.447)
yeah, it totally pisses me off. I fluctuate from like deep-seated anger, inwards and outwards and everything to you know trying to be nurturing and empathetic to myself and all of that. It's this roller coaster that just doesn't end.

And I think unless you have mental illness or chronic illness, it's just something that it's hard to understand or wrap your head around.

leslie_field (11:40.046)
interesting that you say that. I've been calling it the roller coaster for sure. And we were talking about this too when me and you looking out into the world, you know, I think me and you are just kind of sensitive people. Like our systems are sensitive. Like we feel deeply. I'm not saying other people don't, but there's certain people who like it just really affects us. And so what I've even been finding, I have had to almost like step away from

stuff in the world, but it's fascinating because I know that you're feeling the opposite. You're feeling really drawn to go into the world too, which is really beautiful, but I can imagine it's... it can be hard on your system, but you're you're damned if you do and you're... all damned if you don't, right? You know?

julia_lefrancois (12:19.267)
my gosh, so you're, God, this is going to feel like a therapy session by the end of this, but I.

leslie_field (12:25.774)
You

julia_lefrancois (12:27.393)
You totally touched on something so just apropos in my life right now. And yeah, so we talked about earlier, consider myself a change maker. I did a reading one time and I was told I am an indigo child. I don't know much about that yet, but it's pretty synonymous with.

shaking shit up and making changes. So yeah, I mean I'm a scholar too, so I'm in a master's program where I'm research and publishing things about social justice and disability justice, which I kind of wanted to talk about a little bit.

I'm doing these things that are very active, right? Like if you see me on social media, if you hear me talking in a conference or a classroom setting, I am very clear and loud with my opinions and with things that seem wrong in the world or unjust in the world. But, or and, and.

the toll it takes on me is, especially with that sensitivity, especially with that thing, because when world events are happening, when everything is fucked up right now, everything feels fucked up and dark and hopeless, it lays.

right on top of me. And so when I'm like pushed to go and do something in the world, but then the other part of me is like, my God, I can't do this. I need to hole up in my, in my, you know, what, what my mentor calls like a crypt centric liberating zone. So like, my gosh, it's one of my favorite terms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, I want to hole away. I want to hole away, but then I feel like I can't and I shouldn't. And I need to say,

leslie_field (13:55.309)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (14:14.38)
Okay, we're gonna get, we're getting there. We'll get there.

julia_lefrancois (14:23.345)
something and I go back and forth with this whole like silence is violence but then also I need to take care of myself. It's hard.

leslie_field (14:29.962)
It's... I know that. And I... See, that I did know about you because I already... I see you and I know that about you. And I'm in a lot of community of women who feel really compelled to like, yeah, like, staying silent, like you said, is violent. Staying silent is a statement. And so I hear a lot of women how it's not easy to navigate that. And...

julia_lefrancois (14:35.801)
Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (14:51.065)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (14:57.548)
I think what was a really interesting thing that I guess I'm just going to offer you right now and maybe anyone who's listening is that I love the person that I listen to. Her name's Lisa Lister. She's a Scorpio. She's fiery. She says a lot of things in the world. She was telling us that it's important though you take time to fortify yourself. You've got to take the time because then you're running on empty. And I think you know this and you feel this all the time. But this was the other piece that I was really fascinating. But even this can be a lot for people.

julia_lefrancois (15:17.539)
Yeah.

leslie_field (15:27.66)
All emotions, all the spectrum can feel a lot, but she was reminding us about like to find the joy too in the moments because it can feel really having really dark right now. And I know exactly what you're talking about because I see myself having to fortify and pull myself back a little bit. However, this podcast is my way, I guess, of kind of going out a little bit, but I totally, I totally get you, Julia. Like it's not...

julia_lefrancois (15:34.671)
Mm-hmm.

julia_lefrancois (15:50.07)
Right.

leslie_field (15:55.372)
It's not easy, but we need your voice out there. And I see your passion and the work that you're doing and it's, it's really beautiful. I love it. I know deep breath. I know, I know. So you have, you shared with me all these amazing terms and the work that you've been doing. I didn't know if you wanted to talk a little bit more about the body mind, you know.

julia_lefrancois (16:03.471)
I love it and hate it, but yes.

julia_lefrancois (16:18.947)
Yeah, yeah, so I, whenever I talk or write or think about my body, I think of it in terms of...

body mind, like one word, rather than a lot of people say, body mind, soul or body mind, you know, these separate entities. And I think of like my body mind. if like, I wish this is the sign and sign language, I'm like, it's a podcast, it's so hard, but like, basically, it's like, you're connecting your hands, and then you bring it from your head to your heart. And this is literally the sign for connection. And you could do it outwards, like if I'm connecting with a person in front of me or with a

community, you do it in a circle. that's what body of mind is to me because I think the things that we experience, we don't experience things just in our bodies or just in our minds. I think we experience them simultaneously and together in the overlap.

leslie_field (17:13.622)
Absolutely. Yeah. No, this sort of what I'm starting to sort of understand or get curious about is like, all these different layers that, like you said, we separate them all out. Our mind, our body, our spirit, our emotions. they're just all, they're all connected. Like for instance, and I, it's so crazy because I had to have my therapist point this out to me, like hashtag love my therapist.

julia_lefrancois (17:29.251)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (17:40.288)
She was the one who for years now I've been working with her and oftentimes I'll come to her and I'm having like a rough period and I'll be like, I'm just really exhausted. I'm just really exhausted, Janine. I'm just, no, no, no, I'm exhausted because I did too much or I worked out too hard or I didn't sleep well. And she was always the person she would remind me. She's like, Leslie, let's not forget that when your emotions are weighing heavily, your body feels it immediately. Like my body is almost the indicator first that tells me something is going on. Like,

emotionally, spiritually. Yeah, she's the one who's had to reinforce this for years and only now I'm like, shit, she's right.

julia_lefrancois (18:09.173)
Exactly. Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (18:17.035)
Okay, okay, so if you have like that mind-blowing moment with that, tell me if this blows your mind because it blew mine. So you know when therapists or anyone but like therapists say like you've got to feel your feelings, like feel your feelings. Okay, I was listening to someone talk. I don't remember who, where, what platform.

leslie_field (18:30.599)
Ugh.

julia_lefrancois (18:37.987)
But they were like, so my therapist told me today that when they say feel your feelings, they literally mean feel your feelings. Feel it in your body. Is it in your chest? Is it on your shoulders? Is it in your tummy? Is it warm? Is it cold? And I was like...

Holy shit. Like when I heard that, your feelings, it was like, okay, let myself be sad. Sure. Okay, I'll be sad. I'll be mad. I never equated it to like feel it in your body. And I love it. And that's true. Yeah.

leslie_field (19:08.972)
Yeah, that's a big one. And it's totally what I was going with, too. Like, I didn't want to recognize that the body is responding, like, to my emotions. And like, I conceptually understood that idea and I was actually living it. And it wasn't until she was like, hey there, your body is feeling it in certain places and like, you have patterns that when you go through these emotions and you're feeling depressed because of emotional stuff that we're not dealing with,

julia_lefrancois (19:19.289)
Yeah. Right.

julia_lefrancois (19:32.526)
Yeah.

leslie_field (19:38.487)
whatever, your body shuts down and my God, I can't.

julia_lefrancois (19:42.435)
I know. And like as much as it's horrible and like we feel betrayed and angry with our body for doing that, that's our bodies protecting us and communicating.

leslie_field (19:49.624)
I know. I'm so, I'm so mad at her and I love her so much too. Like I feel so torn about this. Like you're so smart and I love you. I know. I think people are going to relate to this so much. you also were telling me about body neutrality and I don't actually know what that means and I want to hear more.

julia_lefrancois (19:54.403)
Both, yes, I know. Fuck her, but also I love her.

julia_lefrancois (20:13.229)
Yeah, so we know body positivity, right? So there's like movements and I feel like there's a lot of like influencers and social media, like media has changed. Whereas before, we were growing up in the 90s being like, I hate my body because Cindy Crawford is a size double zero. I feel like it shifted, hopefully a little bit.

leslie_field (20:32.604)
my God.

leslie_field (20:39.67)
It shifted so much. remember watching friends, sorry, sidebar for a minute here. I remember watching friends and I remember seeing the way, and I was a little bit young to be watching friends, but I did it anyway. And I remember watching like Jennifer Aniston and Courtney Cox. And I remember looking at their bodies and then like looking at my body, looking at their body. And I remember like going, but I would never, I can't look like that. Like my body shape is different.

julia_lefrancois (20:43.137)
Now.

julia_lefrancois (20:50.446)
right.

julia_lefrancois (21:02.113)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Magazines, TV shows. Like it was horrible. Or like the low rise jean trend. Don't even get me started. I love the mom jean trend now. That is my favorite. High waisted pants forever.

leslie_field (21:10.88)
I can't. I can't right now.

julia_lefrancois (21:17.965)
But so anyway, so body positivity is sort of that idea of like loving your body and loving all shapes and sizes and abilities and all of this, right? Colors, shapes, whatever. So body neutrality is something that I like. I don't even know how to cite it. I don't even remember who I learned it from or whatever. But it's not quite love. You're right. If you're not there because I'm not there, I don't fully

leslie_field (21:17.998)
Seriously.

julia_lefrancois (21:48.329)
I can't fully step into that space of like, love my body. I love what it does. Right, right, right, right. So, so, but it's appreciating, it's noticing, it's honoring the function of your body. So rather than saying, you know, like my body hurts, or if I say, if I think or say to myself, my body hurts and I'm angry, or.

leslie_field (21:51.562)
I mean, we kind of just, we just said that, so I know. I know.

leslie_field (22:06.232)
Hmm.

julia_lefrancois (22:17.583)
My body doesn't look the same as that woman in these pants. My fat is showing. I'll sort of sit down and think to myself, my body let me get up out of bed and walk over to my dog and snuggle him this morning. My body allowed me to...

drive to get something to eat, my body allows me to hug my husband. So it's just noticing and honoring the function that your body brings rather than like the value or appearance of your body.

leslie_field (22:53.198)
just going to take that in for a second.

I've heard of this and I think it went in one ear and out the other. So I love that you brought this up.

julia_lefrancois (23:04.567)
It's really powerful. It's also placing boundaries for yourself and others. like, you know, showing up in your body, however you need to show up in your body. And so that's outside of professionalism. Like, like, so I, I love this. I love the communities I'm joining recently, but like I went to a conference and the first thing they said was like a very body neutral statement without saying that it was body neutral, but they were like, you know, we want to make sure that you're in this space, however your bodies need to be. So if you need to eat, eat.

You don't want to sit and be quiet and just watch the speaker speak up on the stage. Sit on the floor and cross your legs. Get up and walk around. Lean and slouch your body if you need to. So I feel like a lot of spaces we feel this need to portray ourselves in a very capitalistic, professional way. Whereas body neutrality says just show up in your body however you need to show up in your body.

leslie_field (24:03.103)
Yeah, I could have used that when I did silly things and said silly things to people a while back. So thank you. I'm undoing all that capitalist programming. I know I look back. yeah. I'm like, wow, I wish I could change that. But it's also like forgiving yourself, you know, and just be like, all right, we're not going to do that anymore. And I love, I love what you said about that and explaining that. I think it's really

julia_lefrancois (24:11.426)
Hahaha

It's a journey.

julia_lefrancois (24:20.675)
Me too.

leslie_field (24:30.146)
beautiful and positive because a lot of people who are listening were here because, or they're here I should say, because it's about their bodies. And so that's a really beautiful way to just be thinking about our bodies.

julia_lefrancois (24:42.831)
And giving them permission, right? So if they're in pain, whatever's going on with their bodies in that moment, they deserve that moment to exist in comfort, despite how uncomfortable it makes other folks. Yeah, that's my spiel.

leslie_field (24:55.213)
Yes.

leslie_field (25:01.208)
Totally. I think it's, no, it's good. And just having awareness around that because, know, I didn't really think about that when I was saying I was doing and saying things in a past part of myself in life that really was contradicting what you just said. And so it's, yeah, it's just important. And I, I'm glad that you're sharing this message and this information for people just to think about, because not everyone's, some people are going to listen, like, I don't know what that means. I don't care or whatever.

julia_lefrancois (25:25.454)
Yeah.

Right, right.

leslie_field (25:29.954)
But then I, this is the crazy thing about life. Cause then you go through life, things happen and you're like, and then you integrate. I get it. I always think like, and not everyone's ever, we're never going to walk in everyone else's shoes. Like that's never going to happen, but it is sometimes really hard to have, I have this barrier and it's hard to understand what it's like to walk in other people's shoes. It really, you can't do it, but it's, just having that awareness or trying to be aware.

julia_lefrancois (25:37.251)
That's what that person was talking about. Yeah, exactly.

julia_lefrancois (25:53.636)
totally.

leslie_field (25:59.926)
I guess. So you also do a lot of work around speaking about disability justice versus disability awareness. I would love to hear more about your work around that because I don't really know any. I don't know much about your work.

julia_lefrancois (26:00.269)
Right, right.

julia_lefrancois (26:12.973)
Yeah. Yeah. So basically, think when we think of like, I feel like on social media, we're hearing a lot of words like anti-racism.

social justice, right, social justice is a big term that a lot of folks here or even just use without really knowing what that term means. So disability awareness are things like ADA regulation, right? There are laws put into place that say, you know, this building has to be accessible for these bodies, which by the way is not always the case.

you know, despite the law, but that's awareness. It's saying, okay, let's make sure that we're fitting this quota or this policy. We're adhering to it. Disability justice demands more of like a deconstruction of...

like social norms of the way we think about people. Even what you were just saying earlier about, like not being able to fully be in someone else's shoes. Disability justice demands us to like think the thought, even if it's an ableist thought or, you know, X, Y, and Z thought, but to re deconstruct it and then reframe it. So.

leslie_field (27:16.152)
Mm-hmm.

julia_lefrancois (27:40.043)
All of that said, about decolonizing our thought processes and the way we view all the bodies on this planet. And so I talked about earlier the idea of Crip. So Crip bodies, it's like very disability justice.

term or identity that disabled folks use, sort of reclaiming the word crippled basically, but Crip bodies refusing to conform to society's unattainable standards. I'm in pain. Even though I'm 34 and most of my illnesses are invisible, I can't take a really long hike in the mountains with my friends and colleagues.

to take breaks. so disability justice is sort of making a space for having that be the normal thing.

leslie_field (28:35.564)
Yeah. Talk to me about ableism too, because there might be someone who's listening who I'm familiar with these terms. I'm not 100 % well versed, but it's always, I think, good for people to sort of have a better understanding. Talk to me about that.

julia_lefrancois (28:42.435)
Yeah. Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (28:49.069)
Yeah, so I also really want to like start by saying it's important, like when we when we have these conversations, like you said earlier, is to like have compassion for yourself. I am not an expert on these things. I am learning every single day. And this is me being a disabled person, being like I'm still learning about ableism. So ableism is sort of synonymous when you think of like racism, right? So we live in a world that caters towards the patriarchy, you know,

catered catered towards you know the white folks being dominant but also where able bodies are dominant this world is sort of set up for people who don't have medical issues

And so ableism is the way of thinking or the way of setting up a space, the way you start a conversation that sort of invalidates a person's experience as a disabled person. I think about COVID and this was really powerful to me. I didn't even realize it was something that I truly felt and that really affected me. remember I like broke down crying when I thought about it, but mask wearing, right?

So not even just mask wearing, but we heard things like, folks who get COVID really bad or who might die, it's only with pre-existing condition. Or what would they say? was like, if you had pre-existing, or if you were at risk or whatever they said, right?

leslie_field (30:22.496)
Yeah, I think it was pre-existing health conditions.

julia_lefrancois (30:26.479)
So they'd say, well, yeah, those folks might die. Those folks might be on ventilators, but everyone else is okay. So I'm not going to wear a mask because I'm safe. I'm protected. So disability justice and like anti-ableism practices and talk says that we deserve, we have the right to live. We have the right to exist.

The person who actually, one of the people who created the term disability justice, her name is Patty Byrne. One of my favorite quotes from her, says, she tells us to dream without shame, out loud and in public. So as a disabled person, dream to exist and to live without shame, out loud and in public.

leslie_field (31:18.606)
Wow. That's really beautiful and powerful. And may I remind you that before we got on this call, don't, you know, I'm a little bit witchy myself and I had some, I had some oracle cards for whatever reason. I was like, I need to bring these with me before I speak to Julia. And I pulled that card that talks about co-creation and it talked about weaving the dream and, and, making a reality. And so I don't think there's any accident that

julia_lefrancois (31:30.296)
Hahaha

leslie_field (31:47.852)
It's something you're super passionate about, that what you speak about, what you advocate for, and that card was like, yep, Julia, keep on going.

julia_lefrancois (31:55.727)
keep dreaming the dream. I know, I know that was powerful.

leslie_field (32:00.227)
So tell me, you're doing a master's program and I know it has a lot to do, I believe, with storytelling, right? There's a lot of research and things.

julia_lefrancois (32:07.727)
Yeah, I basically, I find ways because on top of like being, you know, the fiery, opinionated little redhead that I am, I am also really good at like manipulating things to be what I want them to be.

leslie_field (32:29.23)
That doesn't surprise me, but now the world knows. It knows about your insidious behavior. I know! I know! I, like, when you...

julia_lefrancois (32:36.191)
Look, I learned it from Jessica Gillespie. If anyone is listening, those who heard the other podcast, I learned it from her.

leslie_field (32:46.764)
When you said that right now, was like, God, I already know where this came from. It runs deep in this family amongst the feminine women of this family. But anyway, continue to tell me about this.

julia_lefrancois (32:56.053)
It does. But yes, so I basically like it's not like my thesis is about storytelling, but I find a way and all the labs that I join and all the projects that I write on, I find a way to incorporate storytelling and to promote it and to advocate for it. It's like one of those things like I can't think of an example.

But there are things that you can literally apply to anything. don't know, positivity, right? Like you can apply, like you need to be positive in this thing, medically and spiritually and whatever. So storytelling is like that. I'm like, you need to tell the story of our bodies. You need to tell the story of...

the black experience in America. need to tell the story of sexual assault survivors, whatever. yeah, my master's program is, I'm doing a lot of projects, but yeah, I'm bringing it all back to storytelling.

leslie_field (33:56.462)
I mean, and that's, that is also why I wanted you to come on because it's, there's a, there's a mirroring, I don't want to call it parallel thing happening here where I know inviting women like you on to tell their story, to talk about, you know, the things they're doing in the world or what they've experienced and how they're experiencing their bodies is it's cathartic, it's powerful, it's potent. And it's, I, I'm hoping ultimately healing for, for you and for others that

julia_lefrancois (34:22.67)
Yeah.

leslie_field (34:26.388)
are on these sort of medical journeys or body journeys or whatever journey you want to call it or healing journey. It's, you know, it's tough because we go through all these things very much alone because it's our bodies. Every day we wake up with it and every day we're managing that thing that we're having to manage in our bodies. And if I just, can feel very lonely. That's how I feel.

julia_lefrancois (34:39.055)
Mm-hmm.

julia_lefrancois (34:49.998)
my god, yes, I think it feels so lonely. Yeah.

leslie_field (34:55.115)
Yeah. And so that was just sort of the Genesis inspiration behind why I want women to come on and tell their stories. And I just love it because you know the potency and power of that. And that's why you study it. And that's why you advocate for it and you do such beautiful things. I'm a fan. You know, you're my sister. I love you. But I also want to hear about

julia_lefrancois (35:03.886)
Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (35:16.921)
Thank you, I love you too.

leslie_field (35:20.366)
the Knapp Ministry. I feel like I know this, but I don't know this and I want to know more about this Knapp Ministry, so tell me, what is the Knapp Ministry?

julia_lefrancois (35:27.311)
Okay, so honestly, and I like pre-ordered, so there's a book, person, okay, so the person who like created or like founded this concept of the Gnat Ministry, which I just love the name, it's amazing, her name's Trisha Hersey. So.

She has a book coming out I think in like October and it's called like Rust is Resistance I think I want to say. But honestly if you just google Nat Ministry.

So her mantra, like, you she goes into her whole background of like how this came to be, but she repeated over and over again, this is about more than NAPs. This is about more than NAPs. So for her, NAP ministry is addressing, you know, the experience as a black woman in America, know, generational exhaustion and trauma and things like that. But for me, rest being resistance,

It's me being a Latina, disabled, again, sexual assault survivor. It's about being that person and resisting systems telling me to do more and telling me to do more well, right? To be productive. It's again, back to storytelling. It's about being a storyteller in my own time, in my own way, despite the discomfort it might bring to mainstream audiences. So that's my rest. That lets my heart rest.

my healing begin. Sometimes it's about like untangling myself from systems or practices that again are rooted in those like ableist practices or white supremacist practices. And yes, it's about NAPs. You know, it's about saying no, taking quiet moments with just like me in my book when I should quote unquote should be doing something else. So that's the NAP ministry and what she says is

leslie_field (37:13.23)
Yes! Yes!

julia_lefrancois (37:27.217)
rest is resistance and I totally am on board with that.

leslie_field (37:32.778)
I'm 100 % on board with this as well. It's really fascinating. So my life imploded. I don't know if you knew this. I might have referenced this. I'm telling my sister right now and I'm telling the world. But when the pandemic came, I worked remotely. There was a lot of turmoil in the job that I had at the time. It was a really toxic, not good situation for me. And then so the world was imploding. My whole life in New York City imploded and then the job imploded and everything burned. It, it like...

just burned to the ground. And then I went into, yeah, my deepest depression I've ever had. That was really, really rough. And why am I telling you all this? Well, first off, didn't, I was so fascinating because at that moment I had to then experience that which I used to judge for a lot of people. I could barely get off the couch. My depression was so bad. And I knew I was in a privileged position where we had enough, you know, financial security that I could do that. And so I'm very grateful for that.

julia_lefrancois (38:31.279)
right.

leslie_field (38:31.362)
But it was why I'm saying all this is because everything burned down to the point where, I could barely function. And there was something about the burning down of everything in my life. And it still is very painful and dark to think about what I went through. But I say all this because there was something about this process that I went through that I don't know what happened because God, some people call it like an initiation. It's an initiation to.

julia_lefrancois (38:58.308)
Yeah.

leslie_field (38:58.452)
Something new it's there like your life implodes and burns down because you are supposed to go a different direction. So he Well, I'm only Literally just finding my wings right now like holy shit, like you said in my own time So I guess what I'm trying to wrap this back into is that I had to break down all of the programming that I have been fed my entire excuse my language fucking

julia_lefrancois (39:04.141)
like a phoenix, you're a phoenix rising from the ashes.

julia_lefrancois (39:10.573)
Right, right.

leslie_field (39:26.4)
life that I was just a little robot going about my day and it was really fascinating because in my soul, like in my gut, I there was something missing. It felt like a big gap and a big hole. But I was like, wait a second. I'm doing all the things like I have a job. I have a husband. Like we are so lucky. We have a house. We have a car. We have two little doggies and I have a great job. And, and then it all fucking went to pieces. And then

julia_lefrancois (39:27.395)
Yeah. Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (39:48.803)
Yeah.

leslie_field (39:54.7)
I say this because like I never understood it when people said like deprogramming or decolonizing the mind or or seen through and past and behind like the veil of like what society, what culture is constantly telling you. And so I just I bring all this forward in this conversation to say like, you know, sometimes it's good to to look at things a different way and be open to seeing things a different way and being aware.

julia_lefrancois (40:07.406)
Yeah.

leslie_field (40:22.88)
Even if like you don't get it in that moment, just to maybe listen and be open and maybe in time it'll make sense to you and try to what needs to make sense. Yeah. So I never like that productivity thing. Like I am in a family where my parents do not know how to stay still. So I had two parents who are my first teachers in life who don't know how to sit still. So that's what I learned and it's exhausting. And so again, when my life imploded,

julia_lefrancois (40:30.871)
It'll make sense when it needs to make sense.

julia_lefrancois (40:40.015)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (40:51.5)
and all I could do was lay on the couch, I felt so much shame. I was like, my God, what is wrong with me? And you know what? There was nothing wrong with me. I needed to, there was nothing wrong. I just needed to lay on the fucking couch for a while, okay? And that's, and thank God I could, and I gave myself that and I got through it, but man, it's not easy. Like...

julia_lefrancois (40:55.647)
yeah.

julia_lefrancois (41:00.409)
There is nothing wrong.

julia_lefrancois (41:04.888)
Yes!

julia_lefrancois (41:11.407)
I love that you're, I mean, hate that that happened, but I love that you're saying that because, my God, like as much as I like live by this and have like really tried to unlearn those toxic lessons that were programmed into us, like you were saying.

leslie_field (41:14.798)
You

julia_lefrancois (41:27.427)
Yeah, like yesterday I had such a deep depression. I took my medication. I, you know, went for a walk. I did all the mental health things. I drank water and I could not get out of bed for like three hours.

I was just sitting there and I had stuff to do. needed where I had to check emails. I did all these things to do. And I still was like, what is wrong with me? You're so lazy, which I hate that term lazy. I really think the word lazy is ableist and that's really hard to like wrap my head around. like, anyway, I hear what you're saying. I completely understand.

leslie_field (42:00.414)
It's yeah, like we're here, I guess, just being real because like you said, it's day by day. Like one day at a time is how I have to take with my body, too. Like we moved this weekend. I was, you know, and I was like full speed ahead. And even Ben was like my husband. He was like, my God, you had so much energy. was like, I know it was amazing. Well, the past two days have not been pretty and

julia_lefrancois (42:11.683)
Yes.

julia_lefrancois (42:23.506)
Hahaha

leslie_field (42:28.13)
the self-loathing that would usually come into my brain when I would feel tired. my God, that stuff would come so hard and fast and it still does, it still comes, but it's like I have to have the awareness. I'm like, okay, I see all your noise coming. You're being really hard on myself and I have to sort of like take a breath and

They're still there, but I like for the past two days, it's like I have to have an internal dialogue and I literally feel crazy inside. And I love this because I suspect you might have this going on too. Like it's super busy in there. We're like on the fucking couch. We can't get out of bed. And then there's a whole like conversation nonstop in the mind going, Hey, Leslie, you have worked today. You were supposed to do this. And then the other nurture comes in and goes, I hear you, but.

julia_lefrancois (43:00.237)
Yeah.

julia_lefrancois (43:05.72)
my god.

julia_lefrancois (43:22.286)
Hahaha

leslie_field (43:22.956)
We need to take care of myself. So here I am like trying to fucking rest and I have this like whole internal dialogue going and no one knows just me and you like we know, we know this.

julia_lefrancois (43:32.021)
No one knows, no one knows except this like, like room of critics inside your brain. And then like your husband walks by and you're like, I know I was gonna do the dishes, I'll do it in a second. Or I know I said I was gonna do this earlier, I have to write this thing for school, but I will. And he's like, babe, it's okay, rest, like do what you have to do.

leslie_field (43:51.118)
I love it when our people get us. mean, and sometimes they're in shitty moods and then I really have to be like, wait, hold on. And then it kind of like stops the dialogue of the back and forth my head and go, hold on, wait a minute. We're going to fucking protect myself right now and remind him that I don't feel well and he needs to respect that. And I need to put up a boundary because I'm busy in here dealing with it and I don't need to deal with you too. Like I don't need you as well.

julia_lefrancois (44:11.371)
absolutely.

julia_lefrancois (44:18.383)
I love our partners and like I love that we found partners who are like empathetic and understand that sometimes and also God help their souls because Poor Evan my husband went if I am on like say I just read some like social justice like feminist paper if he says one word that sounds Avalist or patriarchal if he says anything I'm like Boy sit down

leslie_field (44:46.606)
You

julia_lefrancois (44:47.177)
sit down and listen to my TED Talk.

leslie_field (44:50.702)
I know, I know. And that's, you know, when we're feeling good and in our power. And then some days we're gonna be like, I can't take, I can't talk my TED talk right now, but when I'm feeling up for it, you better be ready. So just know that. I feel like we could talk all day about all the things, but, you know, I think this might be the perfect moment to just say thank you for coming. Thank you for being here.

julia_lefrancois (45:00.718)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

leslie_field (45:16.258)
Thank you for being my sister that I still get to deepen my relationship with and learn about all her things. It's been so great and beautiful and fun and cathartic to talk to you.

julia_lefrancois (45:26.447)
It's so healing even just doing this with you and like you said, the fact that it's with you is so meaningful to me. Okay, I'm gonna cry but I'm not gonna cry. But anyway, I love you. I'm really proud of you and I'm really thankful that you're creating such a healing and safe space for us to come in here and tell our stories.

leslie_field (45:47.448)
Thank you. I'm trying. I might not get it totally right, but my heart, my heart's in the right place, but I could mess that up. there was one more thing. And thank you for saying that. I love you. I did wanted to close out and I loved how you called it a strength-based closeout where I want to hear about your, whatever comes to mind. I think you said you had something you might want to share that you've already written and I would love for you to share it.

Tell me about who you are, your likes, your wants, your desires, your wishes. Like, who is Julia beyond all this maybe intense stuff? And I know you are the intense stuff, but like your other things too, like tell me.

julia_lefrancois (46:20.493)
Yes.

I'm other things too, I'm other things too. I'm a little weirdo as well. Wait, really fast before I say that, there's one more book for folks listening that I think you should totally look into if you're interested in some of the things I talked about, and it's called Crip Kinship by Shada Kawhi. I just need you to know how powerful and magical that person is. Okay.

leslie_field (46:44.738)
that. Thank you. Thank you. I'll link to it in my show notes too so people can find it.

julia_lefrancois (46:48.577)
Okay, awesome. So yeah, I would like to share something about me.

So I'll just share it. So what recharges me is the smell of a good book on a cold night with a blanket wrapped around me. Sometimes it's a walk outside taking photos of the trees that I swear are welcoming me home. I'm a self-proclaimed sensationalist who will inevitably get lost in fiction until someone I trust can bring me back. Most of my past lives are across the pond and I love putting pen to paper. I was born to disrupt the status quo and I will spend the rest of this life shaking.

things up.

leslie_field (47:25.966)
And so it is. And so it will be. I love you, Julia LaFrancois.

julia_lefrancois (47:33.327)
See you

leslie_field (47:34.775)
Mwah!